UX Design to WIN in Business

Nils (00:00)
Hey everyone, welcome back to UX Design to Win in Business. My name is Nils and today I have a very dear friend and special guest on the show. My old friend from Berlin, Sylvia, who's in Singapore for a longer time and who I know from her product management days. But Sylvia, maybe you can give a little intro for people who don't

Silvia (00:25)
Yeah, happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me. Yeah, nice change to be on a podcast and especially on one of the first episodes of your podcast. But yeah, as you said, I'm a product person.

spend most of my career in building software, consumer products mostly. Started out in Europe. I did a bit of work for a startup also in Japan. That was before we met in Berlin. And then after Berlin, I quickly moved to Singapore. So there's a colorful mix of my European work experience and

products for Europe and then also a bunch of Asian countries.

Nils (01:12)
Yeah, so cool. And how long have you been working in Singapore now? It's already a while,

Silvia (01:19)
Yeah, we moved here 2013 so it's now already like more than 11 years that I'm

Nils (01:28)
Amazing. Yeah. And so, yeah, we met back at our Rocket Internet Venture glossy box, right? Like you were my product manager. I was front -end dev at the time. And that was how we met. And then we got this chance to have another project together. I think, I don't know if

your last job or if there was one in between, see, but Zalora, right? yeah, yeah, cool. Nice. Yeah, and I thought we could have a conversation about...

Silvia (01:57)
Yeah, that was tough.

Nils (02:07)
about user experience and your perspective as a product person, especially now with you being in Southeast Asia. Like I already noticed when I came over for our project for a month at Zalora back then, that I was not prepared for the cultural differences, not even in working in the team, but like the first stories that I heard back then were...

that the platform was imported from Europe to be built upon for the Southeast Asian market. And that there were just like the most basic issues that I remember that the team told me about at the account sign up was primarily focused on email and password. And nobody really knew what to do with email and password password in Southeast Asia. And that really struck me. It was like

Wow, it's so like there's so fundamental differences in how this experience has to be designed for people. And yeah, I mean, maybe you can elaborate a little bit more how it all started out for you when you moved to Singapore and started to work in this environment.

Silvia (03:21)
Actually, I would say the start of it was when we were working in Berlin together because at that company I was brought onto the team to manage the international rollout.

And so as a product manager, my first job was actually to understand like, okay, how do we localize for these markets? And we had like the most ambitious and ridiculous plans, which I guess to my own surprise, you know, we launched so many countries in the first year.

Nils (03:57)
Mm. I remember.

Silvia (03:57)
A lot of them, yeah. So to be fair, think now looking back, think localizing among like European countries is easier than, you know, if you go even further and just the differences are magnified. But that was my first taste. So I think I was definitely sensitive towards, okay, there's differences. It's beyond just the language and okay, let's translate.

There's differences in how people think about the checkout experience, how to sign up for an account. Then payment methods are still to this day very, different among different countries, also here within Southeast Asia. And then...

Nils (04:45)
Yeah. So it's not just everyone has a MasterCard on their iPhone and that's it. Ja.

Silvia (04:50)
Not at all. Not at all. Yeah. So this is the thing, I think, you know, as someone who was

born and raised in Germany and you you have easily this exposure to like the neighboring countries and I think most of us Europeans probably think we see obviously the differences between the markets and the countries but I have to say since I came to Southeast Asia and typically especially if you work for a Singaporean company you also look at different markets in the region but the difference is that

bigger. So let's go back to the language, know, not everyone is using the alphabet. They might have different fonts

Nils (05:32)
Mm -hmm.

Silvia (05:36)
down to like, yeah, credit card is not a given. Actually, even to this day, in the emerging markets, like in the Philippines or in Indonesia, people might not have a bank account. So what's interesting is like, especially in the last 10 years, they kind of jumped certain steps

evolutionary steps that you can see in the US or in Europe and it jumps straight to like the digital wallet. Like people grow up, you know, without digital wallet. But they might have a digital wallet like yeah, really early on. That's their main payment method online and offline. Yeah.

Nils (06:03)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

No, awesome. Yeah, I mean, so I remember maybe to start slowly because I feel like there's like a huge story here, especially for business owners thinking about, I'm not even sure how this topic is approached. Like I remember that I read this book from Netflix, for example, where they very vividly described.

their international rollout, the first time they went out of the US and then what happened. And I remember that I had to laugh out loud for a couple of pages because like the magnitude of problems, like they described, like they were not prepared. Like they tried to do whatever they did in the US and were like completely surprised that nothing of this worked,

even a little bit. And they started with Europe. they, I think there was like a couple of European countries and then they went into, you know, South America, Southeast Asia. And then like there was the story of how I always thought like the Germans were the most upfront and direct in their communication, which is...

like already a problem with Americans. And so I also remember that when I visited you at Singapore, that I was reading this tiny book, like a primer on how to not be rude in Southeast Asia. thought, whoo, danger zone. And then they described that the Dutch people were even worse in that regard than the Germans. was so, but yeah, like when, when we were rolling out in Europe, I think

Back then, when I didn't consider what it means to go onto a market like Southeast Asia, right? We were already discussing, well, Spain is maybe very different than Germany, right? And then the French people and, we really have to pay attention. But so, you're dealing with stuff like, I don't know, from Vietnam all the way to, I don't know, what are all the countries that you had to deal with at Zalora?

Silvia (08:06)
Yeah.

Indonesia, Philippines, Malaysia, Thailand.

Yeah, it's like you maybe start with looking at the basics and especially in e -commerce what's happening in the physical world, like different shipping providers, different shipping methods, right? Different ways how customers get the goods. So that has to be embedded in the experience and you need to, as a product manager, also at the business teams, you need to pick the things that...

work for your target audience. And yeah, as it gets more digital, like payment methods are of course also always one of the first things to consider. And then what about your branding and just the overall message and the value proposition? People care about different things, especially if you come with a new...

business model or a new idea that has never been existed in one of those markets. Think about how do people perceive you. So trust is I think always a thing, how to build trust.

Nils (09:20)
Mmm. Mm -hmm.

Silvia (09:28)
And that also like you might have to do in different ways. Some people, some cultures, I think, trust faster if you say like, this was successful in Europe, this was successful in the US. Others are like highly skeptical and they're like, if this was built for the US market, it's never going to work here. Yeah, because we're very different. Yeah.

Nils (09:46)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah, just per se.

Silvia (09:55)
Yeah, so you can go so wrong depending on like what messaging you pick and you really need to do your homework and understand who's my target audience, what's their mindset, what's the first impression when they see your product, be it your digital or your physical product and then how to go from there, yeah, how to start this very...

Nils (10:15)
Yeah. And that, like you said, like a couple of very interesting things, like from your messaging, your brand, like how to build your trust and all of this. I think this is something that is very interesting, maybe to expand a little bit onto how this feeds into user experience, I suppose. Like the way I see it is that...

we're trying to get to what is user experience even, like how can you design for a good user experience? And I have the feeling that those points that you mentioned, they feed into the overall user experience that ideally comes out that people trust you, right? Like it's there and

Silvia (11:01)
Yeah.

Nils (11:04)
you can tell us a little bit more about how to get there. Like how did you, you know, acquire all this individual knowledge? Like how can people go about understanding what the target audience needs and wants to extend that trust towards your business?

Silvia (11:21)
Yeah.

I think at the very beginning, before you start to build something or start to localize your product,

It's about doing the market and the customer research. Like exactly understanding what is already there. Maybe there's competition there or maybe there's like, you know, indirect competition that people are going to start comparing you to. Like all of these things, I think you need to know before you start to do, you start to think about like, what are we going to do about our product and our brand? And then that...

channels, all the ideas that you have, think hopefully in the right direction and visiting. think anyone who's going to a new market, for sure you have to, it's not enough to just do the desktop research, but to really show up even if it's just a few days and

Nils (12:15)
Mm -hmm.

Silvia (12:16)
Yeah, and get a sense of simple things like going around the capital of a specific country, seeing what's people's lifestyle, how do they spend their time, how do they go out and eat, et cetera. Yeah, if it's a consumer product, like I'm talking about, mostly I think about consumer products, it's crucial to understand and can...

I think prevent you from making the most basic mistakes with justice.

Nils (12:48)
Mm -hmm. Like not offering the right payment method, for example.

Silvia (12:52)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And just as a starting point, think to develop that empathy. On the other hand, I have to say, think then you'll probably quickly realize you need some people on the ground to help you with the expansion. It's very hard, even though, I mean, with globalization and everything feels so close and travel has become so easy. But at the end of the day, if you jump around the globe and go to different markets, it's still very crucial you have some

on the ground.

Nils (13:25)
who continuously watch what's happening also,

Silvia (13:29)
Yeah, you have deeper knowledge, like

do need also some specialists, know, it's, it's, it's, it's not enough. It's a starting point to spend a few days in your, in this new market and hopefully meet some of your target customers. But, but if anything, that's probably then, depending where you go to realization, okay, I think I need some people on the ground who, who've actually launched here, gone to market and who know more

depth how we can make this a success.

Nils (14:01)
crazy. So yeah, I mean, for people looking to expand into a new market, let's go check. Like, don't just read about it. Read about it, but then go check, right? Like it's, it's not enough to just chuck the translation files onto deep L and be done with it. Right? Like that's not going to cut it. Probably.

and then have people on the ground. Like I think that is something that is probably not necessarily straightforward to plan with if you're just, you as you say, it's a globalized world. I can probably just have like a digital presence and then countries just work very differently. I think that is super interesting. And those people on the ground, would you say...

they have to be your ex designers or you know like how does this I'm interested in this whole how do you go about understanding the differences and then how do they end up in your product so you actually do it the right way or you actually address the right need and challenge you know because like that seems like

Asking people is always one thing, but then to learn the right thing from it and to actually act upon it is, I guess, another thing, right?

Silvia (15:23)
Yeah, yeah. So I think I mean, I'm talking also a lot, I think from the perspective of an entrepreneur.

or maybe if it's a bigger company, specific business division that has this target, okay, let's go abroad. I wouldn't start with a UX designer. I think someone maybe a bit more holistic, like a business development manager. And again, it can be someone maybe from your home turf who moved over, who has already spent some time there and is going over.

maybe first just on a trip, or immediately trying to find someone local who has spent time in the same industry or has done something similar. think that can give you a huge head start. And more scanning the market and the customer base. And I think then with that, as the strategy becomes more...

Nils (16:00)
Mm -hmm.

Silvia (16:21)
written down in concrete and then getting specialists on board, like for example, UX designer, okay, let's change this. Yeah, but I think it can also work in a way where you still have your UX team at home in the headquarter, but you have some, you have

Nils (16:29)
Mm -hmm.

Silvia (16:40)
business person or this person with like a bigger amount, large amount of insights than briefing the team. Yeah, I see that as well. I think that can work. Yeah. And by the way, I think there's another thing that comes to mind. So,

Nils (16:51)
Awesome and... yeah.

Silvia (16:57)
Especially for German companies or German entrepreneurs the German government is actually providing a lot of help also to go abroad in particular to markets in Asia Yeah, there is an organization called the start to group I'm working with them as well as a mentor so they bring regularly Startups in particular tech startups to to Singapore to do like market

Nils (17:09)
Really?

Silvia (17:26)
programs, market entry programs, and through that people get this immediate access to mentors who already spend a while in the specific market and some specialists as well and it's a huge time saver.

Nils (17:44)
Awesome. And so, hey, this is also super interesting. Like I'm honestly since I started this podcast, I'm not even sure what a UX designer is anymore. Like I'm starting to question the term entirely. Just because I feel that user experience is not just a designer's job, you know? Like maybe it's their job to

to tie it together and to make this strategy that everybody can work alongside, but to create a good user experience from start to finish. If you have a consumer product, I don't know, if you run a platform, like an e -commerce platform, and you have people buy stuff, they have to find you, they have to trust you that you're actually gonna deliver the product.

Silvia (18:34)
Yep.

Nils (18:34)
Right? Like that is useful for them. So you kind of have to really localize and not just translate your text and so on. You have to have relevant products and you have to ship them. They have to have to arrive. They have to hold a while. They have to have customers. Like all of this whole thing. And all of that for me makes up the user's experience and not just how the platform looks.

Or if there's like a nice copy in the transaction email that you get to confirm your order, right? So if you say,

there are these mentors or there you would say like the first person on the ground should be like a business development manager. How do they talk to your design team or like how does this, know, how do they get the knowledge out of their head to actually do something about it? You know, what would you say? Where's this process? Like that sounds super interesting.

Silvia (19:22)
Yeah

Yeah.

Yeah.

I've mostly seen setups where the beady person does not have this awareness of like what does the tech team need or like the whole, the one that's working on the unit.

right, that's actually creating the X. So I think that's why my approach has always been kind of the other way around. And I also, the teams that I was working with or that I was putting together, tried to make sure that we have at least one person in the team who's good at asking these questions and is striking this knowledge. And there

I think yeah, there's probably some literature you can read about it as well, like how to ask the best questions, but a lot of it I think comes also with experience. And most of the time it was the designer on the team who

Nils (20:20)
Mm -hmm.

who asked the questions.

Silvia (20:27)
Yes, yeah. think product managers as well can definitely be complementary or have a... It's part of their work too, for sure. Yeah, but I found actually designers to be a bit more ahead, or more used to this, like, okay, let me exactly understand how this works and get more into the nitty gritty of the experience.

Nils (20:30)
Yeah.

And so in that case, like it almost sounds like we work a lot with user testing in general. And to me, it sounds a little bit like the, the biz -deaf person on the ground can be like this, at least for the beginning or something like that as the, like an avatar that you can, that you can talk to for instead of.

interviewing like a bunch of people, can start with interviewing that person from a designer's perspective or from a product perspective in the broader sense. I imagine it like a little bit like you're probing around, like can people pay with this? No? Okay. Crap. how do we have to this and that and how do you, right? And then you start from there, I suppose.

Silvia (21:45)
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And sometimes it's also, it's the only way you can do it that you have a proxy, like a person in between because of language barrier. Yeah. So I also had to do this. We had, yeah, when I was working for the e -commerce company, our team, majority of our team was in Singapore.

Nils (21:59)
Excellent point, yeah.

Silvia (22:09)
And then...

How do you get really the deep insights from what an Indonesian customer wants? Well, my closest proxy was to talk to our team in Indonesia and in Jakarta, right? I mean, they knew the business context very well. They had great insights also into like what people were in general interested in, what was going on in the market. They could explain those trust issues also much better to me than I had listened

Nils (22:15)
Yeah.

Yes. Yeah.

Silvia (22:39)
like the original translation of whatever an Indonesian customer was talking about. So these people who can bridge between cultures, help you overcome also language barriers and become this proxy are incredibly important in the process.

Nils (22:59)
Crazy, crazy, crazy. Awesome. I I think we could probably talk for hours about this whole topic and maybe we actually, let's see, like, I feel like there's a lot to uncover. Maybe we get the chance to do another episode, but to bring this one to a close, let's maybe summarize for what are like the key steps to...

to design a good user experience when you're going abroad from out of your safety zone in the country that you started out with. What would you say would be step number

Silvia (23:37)
book a ticket, haha, book a ticket and go for a few days, see what it's really like, especially if it's a city or a country that you've never been to. And if you're the person in charge, you know, if it's like your product, your company, etc. Yeah, highly valuable. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And then from there,

Nils (23:38)
Book a ticket and go.

Yeah.

You gotta go, right? You gotta go yourself to know what you're talking about. Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah.

Silvia (24:05)
The next step, know, if you're still coming back, if you're still convinced this is something we want to tackle, this is something we can tackle as well, because most of the time it's also quite a sizable investment depending on where you... Then I think it's about like, how do you... How can you bridge between your home turf and this new location? Who are the people that can help you?

Nils (24:18)
Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Silvia (24:29)
could be like accelerators, be partnerships, could be organizations like the one that I mentioned before, or it could be going straight to like, let's hire our first person or find our first person on the ground and then like build everything from there.

Nils (24:43)
Yeah. that is very cool. That is very cool. And I think to think in these terms, like to turn it around like this, not to start from a spreadsheet, but to buy a ticket and go and to understand how is everything there. Like to really think from, if I would be someone in my country.

who would buy something from.

from an international business, how would I feel about it? How would I, which questions would I probably apply to assess if I'm willing to, you know, try and buy a product from this platform, I suppose, right? Like you can also flip it around and try to buy something from a South American shop and see how you feel about it, because that's the way that people will be weirded out about what you're going to do, because you're not gonna nail it in the first go, I

Silvia (25:33)
Yep.

Nils (25:41)
Yeah, this is a super interesting topic that I'd love to expand on in the future.

But for today, I think that was super helpful already. And I really want to thank you for coming on and for telling people about this. I remember that you a couple of years back had this talk, I think, where people flew you into Frankfurt to talk. It's a while back, right? But you were telling people how...

Silvia (26:11)
It's already a while back, but yes.

Nils (26:17)
how it is to go to Southeast Asia. And it's just a major thing. you, if we can close with anything, then probably that it's not willy -nilly. You can't just translate your platform and be done with it. Cool. Cool. Thank you, Silvia, for coming on.

Silvia (26:30)
Exactly.

Thank you so much for having me. How do you like my microphone, by the way?

Nils (26:39)
Yeah, I love your microphone. I'm going to get like one from mine too.

Silvia (26:46)
knew you would have the professional set up so I had to come up with something really quick.

Nils (26:50)
I absolutely love it. Cool. Alright. Hope to see you in another episode.

Wait, have to cut

Silvia (27:20)
Bye!