UX Design to WIN in Business

Nils (00:00)
All right. Welcome back to the show. We're on the podcast UX Design to Win in Business. My name is Nils, co -founder at Dinghy. And today I have my third guest on the show. I'm very excited. And my guest today is Florian from PAZE Studios. That is very cool that you take the time to join us today. For people who don't know

Do you want to make me do like a little introduction of what you do and especially what is happening at Pace?

Florian (00:29)
Yes, definitely. So thanks for having me, first of all. Glad to be here and to join you in this. So yeah, my name is Florian, or Flo. I'm one of the creatives and founders of Pace Studios. We're a creative studio mainly focused on different sorts of visual experiences, mainly doing motion design and animation, both on the web and interactive applications, as well as doing branding, brand design.

and some cool web experiences as well, and a bunch of other things that group among these. However, I think those would be among the most important things. And yeah, I'm very excited to be here and chat

Nils (01:02)
Cool, so cool. Yeah, I think, so I was very excited about this episode because you are also working on brand stuff. And I was exploring this notion of how maybe brand or UX design even overlap. At least we came from this whole point

and that's partly the reason why I even started this podcast at some point was

That UX design seems to be a concept that is sort of hard to grasp. Right? Like it's, so if we just pedal back for a couple seconds, there's always, at least on my LinkedIn feed, for example, there's these posts in, and also in UX related groups and so on. And there's like, people are hiring for UX slash UI designers. And so,

There's always this thing where I guess your eye design was there first, maybe? Not sure. Right? What was there first? But so they kind of get thrown into the same bucket. And I think the naming alone, like UX design, sort of implies to people that it's like a designer person

Florian (02:00)
That's correct.

Nils (02:14)
does this or whatever, it's like, I think it makes the impression that it's like a singular activity. And with brand, brand is also, it's not just your logo and you have like three colors and your font, right? Like I think that is also.

Florian (02:19)
Yes.

Nils (02:29)
sometimes the first thought that people pump up in their head, especially with customers, you know, who don't necessarily, well, are brand designers themselves or whatever. So I feel like brand and...

and UX are both topics that are not like tied to one person or even one department. For me, it feels like UX design is something that if you want to do it right, like if you, you know, you probably had the requests from customers to say, you know, but you know, like, can we make it a little bit more like Apple or whatever? right. Yeah, because that's always the one thing that comes up. I, my

Florian (03:04)
great sample.

Nils (03:09)
The is always that whenever it looks simple, then it was probably very hard to make.

not about just adding images to a website. and since you're in all of this realm, I wanted to get your take on this. Like maybe you can share a little bit about how, maybe how, what sort of discussions you have with your customers when it comes to brand design and then you have this element of interactivity in your service portfolio. I'd be excited to hear about that.

Florian (03:35)
Yes. Yeah. Very, very interesting topic. And it's funny that you mentioned the Apple reference because that is for some reason, part of it that I can understand, definitely. It's one of the things we hear very often that people mention the Apple website, how they present their products, how you can have nice scroll interactions or scrawly telling, if you want to call it that, that makes you explore and

experience the website and the products in a different way. And I think it's a great example because many people have tried to adapt this and to do something similar and have succeeded in various degrees, I would say. so I think that what you mentioned is interesting because when people say, can we make it more like this or can we make it more like that, they tend to see the result that

was part of, or that was the end of a very long process that involved so many things. And so one thing that we often talk about with clients is how do we get there and what is involved in the process that gets you there. And along that process, we often notice that there are a ton of things that you have to take into account and that this whole, there is not.

this is great UX and we can just take this and change the colors and change something else and it will do the exact same thing for this client or that client. There are so many things that have to be taken into account and that have to be done to make it work with another brand and make it work the same way but also in a different way because with Apple, think Apple is a great example and it's also probably the worst example.

Nils (05:07)
Mmm.

Florian (05:12)
if you compare it to brands that you are talking to that are most likely also in a very different product realm, they have a different service that they offer, they have a very different product, they have a very different story that they're trying to tell. And so all of these things have to be taken into account when crafting something that gets you a similar experience. And in the end, in most cases or in many cases, it's not actually that similar to what Apple is doing.

but it might be achieving the similar effect or have the similar effect to the users that actually then experience this website or this digital product, whatever it may be. But yeah, the process that gets you there is, as we also experienced ourselves together with you also, that UX is a concept that is also part of buzzword bingo sometimes and

Nils (05:56)
Yeah.

Totally is,

Florian (06:02)
If you ask 10 people what it is, will most likely get 8 to 10 different responses, I would say.

Nils (06:09)
That's the thing. Exactly. Yeah. It drives me nuts.

Florian (06:14)
I think part of it is also because what you said I think is important because it entails so many things and it is represented or relevant in so many different topics and contexts that it's not necessarily just this one thing but it's more like I would say it's a group, it's a great many of things that are joined together to create something that the user experience and

definitely would say that I like the word itself because it is a user experience, but what it consists of and if it's mainly design or if it's the type of interaction or if it's accessibility or so many other things that make up the experience for a user or the brand experience, if you want to call it that, how users experience a brand or a product, that is something that I think

greatly depend on the context, the brand, the product, and wherever you put it in that respect.

Nils (07:05)
Yes, I think absolutely that's the point of that it's a combination of many different activities, right? We came into this whole discussion on how to frame what UX design is even when we were actually when we were trying to figure out how to structure our website and how to tell people about what we're even doing.

Right. And, and we work together on your website. so I know you're in the same, in the same, in the same thought process, so to say. And, and we made a list of everything we can do in a skill, so to say, and there's stuff there's, I don't know, there's UI design. There it is. There's maybe there's like a little bit in animation. There's like front end development.

There is, can make you a wire frame and we can, I don't know, all of these, can audit the accessibility of your website. Sure. Like all of this stuff's like a list of whatever, 30 things or 40 or many, right? And I think to stick maybe with the example of an agency website, I suppose that is something that our listeners also encountered in their careers already, right?

Florian (08:19)
Thank

Nils (08:20)
Like I think there's often this way of, for me, it feels like the difference between a feature and a benefit. So when I tell people I can, I can make you front end development. All right. But I think they're not actually interested in front end development. I think they don't necessarily even care if we have to program something or not, because the goal is for them.

to increase their business. And that happens with people having a better experience with whatever you're doing. Right? If you're selling products from like B to C, so to say, like Apple, if you're selling a product to a huge amount of people, then every touch point in there makes up, and that's really where I'm fuzzy on.

Where's the difference even in how I think about UX and brand? Because like the way I think about it is when like what people like about Apple is that they kind of know what they're getting because it's just so known by now, right? even I suppose like many customers who buy a new iPhone bought an iPhone before. And so they kind of already know they have like the experience from last time and it was good.

So they know how to look at an iPhone website and how to check the features and then they buy it and they already even know how many, how much storage they might need or whatever. And then you get the package and you know that unpacking it is nice and that it's delivered via UPS and not, you know, whatever other packaging parcel provider that gets lost somewhere. So it's the UPS guy and you will only

You will not leave it at your doorstep. You only give it to you in your hand when you sign for it. And I guess if you ordered like a MacBook for 5 ,000 euros, you kind of want that and you don't want it left at your doorstep. And there's all of these different things, right? And then they kind of transition over from you opening the package and feeling the hardware and like the, all of that is very nice. And you open it and it says, hello. And it gives you like tangible options to migrate from your old hardware.

Florian (10:09)
Yes, definitely.

Nils (10:27)
And all of that is very seamless. And I think this whole thing for me is, is even like all of that counts into the brand experience. Like this is why Apple is known for what they are. But a big part for me of all of this is actually also user experience. Like that is, that is the way that I make, like this is the experience that I have. And this is

what I'm going to remember about this company, right? Like that everything works and it doesn't break and it doesn't give me weird errors in between and I don't have to call the support. So that is why I'm willing to pay a premium for this product, I suppose. And so when you mentioned that you talk to your customers about that achieving

a good brand design is sort of a process. you sort of, do you have like a list or like a mental list of stuff that you try to get them through? Or is this like one package that you say like, we're gonna pimp your brand now? Or is it rather like a longer process? How do you approach this also in communication?

Florian (11:30)
Yeah, so I think this full circle experience with Apple that you're mentioning is definitely, I would consider it to be a user experience as well, because it is, because it takes you from the very first step to the very last step and beyond that, even if you start using the actual product, it takes you to kind of the same feeling, the same experience. And I think if a brand can manage to do that, that's very great.

But getting the is a huge process and has also taken Apple a lot of time, I would argue. When we talk to a client about this, really, mean, do I have a checklist in my mind? I would say yes. But also it's very unique to where is the brand? it a startup that just, it's just getting started that has

probably zero marketing material and that is just having like a little one -pager website and is now trying to establish this experience or is it an established brand that is trying to do something new or trying to improve or trying to rebrand to improve all of these things that are mentioned in each of these touch points. And usually the list that we then go through or even the steps and services that then follow.

are very very unique. Of course there are things that are similar in every project but it really heavily depends on where they are. And also I think it's important in the dialogue with the clients to find out how much thought have they put into this whole topic of user experience. Did they do like the classical stuff like setting up, coming up with personas and trying to figure out what the target group is, what they want.

Nils (12:59)
Yes. Yeah.

Florian (13:08)
Did they do some sort of testing before? Did they explore this whole topic of user experience and how they want their users to experience their brand or their product? Because if they did, that's great. Then they have already put a lot of thought into it. And that is, of course, a better foundation to work on and to start working on ideas how to rebrand or to create the whole brand design.

So that would be a completely different starting point for us as well and for you of course if the client already had all of these things prepared for you It would be a very different starting point And in our experience at least that is very rarely the case usually there are some ideas and also maybe some data that you can use to support some of these decisions so for example they have

Nils (13:42)
Yeah,

Florian (13:55)
some analytical data from the website or from their digital products that give you an idea of where there might be some metrics or things that you can improve or that you can build upon. Other than that, it's a very, in my experience, it's a very unique and individual customized process. But of course, I would say that the starting point for the client or for the brand

in what they want and what their target is, almost always nearly the same, I would say, because they want to get to a point where they have the ideal user experience, where their brand is represented in a way that is both something that their clients and their target group are expecting or that they wish for, that they would like to see, but also how they themselves want to represent their brand and how they

to see it how they want it to be out there because if these two things are misaligned it sometimes is necessary because we experienced that for ourselves because you mentioned this before right we had to learn this ourselves to not just tell people we do 3d animation 2d animation we do this this this and that and then people will be like yeah but i want a cool video can you do that

Nils (15:07)
Hahaha

Florian (15:09)
We need a website with cool interactive elements or we need a website that looks like Apple's or we need a similar experience to this and that. And it becomes very non -technical at this point because clients are, the clients that we worked with so far are in general not mostly coming from this background that they say, okay, we need 3D product packshot rendering with this, this and that. And they have a vision.

Nils (15:18)
Yes.

Yes.

Florian (15:34)
They have an outcome that they're looking for, but they don't necessarily care so much about how we get there or what skills we need to apply to get there. And we have learned this for ourselves as well in how we present ourselves and how we craft a user experience for people that visit our website or that give us a call to better grasp this whole concept of what we're actually doing and

Nils (15:43)
Yes.

Mm -hmm.

Florian (15:58)
Why it's not important to our clients how we necessarily get there, but that we get there and that the process in between is as smooth as possible and gets them the results that they're looking

Nils (16:08)
Yeah, totally. Like you said a couple of very interesting things in this whole, in how you told the story. And one of them, I'd like to ask like a little bit more. you said, they, just now you said they usually have like a goal they're trying to get to.

And when you start a project or you start a conversation about a potential project, with a, with a prospect, do you, would you say customers usually have a, a concrete goal that they're trying to achieve? Or is it more like a problem that they're trying to get rid of? Or is it something in the middle? You know, like

How do your customers approach you and kind of express what they need? Because I agree that they don't buy 2D design from you. Like usually they do all of this, of course, with a goal to be more successful in their business. And this is a really important point to me because as you said, like our job as agency owners,

And as the agency in general is to do this translation, right? To get them where they want to go and to kind of reverse engineer which steps are needed to go to that place. Right? And for me is always when I start work with a customer is always the most interesting conversation is to even understand where they want to go. Right? Like if they're a startup and they say, flu, can you make us like a single page?

landing page and can you add cool animations to it? I think I would like to get your take on what is your thought process if somebody comes along like that or in a different

Florian (17:46)
Yeah. Well, of course, we get a very, very different range of requests in that regard or inquiries. Often you have clients that come to you with a problem, but each problem has a target because the target would be to solve the problem and each target most likely stems from some sort of problem that existed before. Problem

would be a word that the client would most likely not necessarily use for many of these points because they might not see it as a problem or they might have a different perspective on it. so some clients of ours come to us with a very specific request, like you just mentioned, we need this. This is like a website or a landing page that has an interactive element or we

digital avatar that greets you on the page and takes you along a journey or something like this. And of course then we take a look at it and we that doesn't necessarily mean that we just do as they say and just start right away. If we see any potential issues with it or if we find that part of it could be improved or done differently, we will let them

Nils (18:44)
Mmm.

Florian (18:55)
But also it's part of a dialogue, right? So if they if they ask us for our opinion we will always give it to them and If they ask us for some sort of consulting a portion of it, then we will give them our take on this as well But sometimes they they have already explored this before and they just need something very specific but then again also we we have clients that approach us with hey we

We have this existing website to still stay in this example of a website. And the client goes, or our clients go through these and these steps, but we lose them there and there and something like this. What can we do to not have them exit this experience too early? How can we decrease our abandonment rates at certain steps within the process?

And then we take a look at it and we will try to find out what's actually going on. How can we make things more engaging? How can we improve retention rates? What can we do to improve this whole digital experience to solve this problem? And then the target will become something that gets improved in the whole experience. We add certain things. We add animation. We add different testing methods maybe as well.

So I would say to come back to your question, there is a very broad range of different vectors that the clients are coming from. Some have a very specific problem. Others might not yet know what the problem is and we'll have to find out together and we will have to explore that and then craft something based on that. So there will be a lot more of exploration, evaluation and

Nils (20:06)
Mm -hmm.

Florian (20:27)
consultation to find out together what's actually wrong and how can we work on that and that we have have clients that have a very a very specific issue or very specific problem that they need to solve but in that in this third variant if you want to call it that you would have clients that think that this is the problem but the problem might be something something else along the process and then they might be very surprised to find out

it actually breaks at a very different position, if you want to say. those are very interesting projects to me as well, because it's a different way of problem solving, right? So if you get presented a problem and someone tells you, please fix this, and then you find out that there's a very different problem that needs to be fixed, and then you have to find

Nils (20:57)
Yeah!

Florian (21:17)
find a way that in the end, know, crafts somewhat of an experience that gives our client the feeling that their initial problem is solved by us, you know, consulting on how this experience can be improved and finding out where it actually breaks. So yeah, it's a very, very unique process and very, very different array of things that need to be taken into account.

Nils (21:41)
It is, and I think that expands just only on the point that running a company today is almost always also running like a digital experience, I guess, like in the bigger sense that even if you're not like a, you know, you're not like a service, software as a service product.

or something where you really have like a platform and your product is an app or whatever, like something like this. think even, even for us as an agency to stay in this example, we have to take many different steps or check many different steps. If the overall user experience is still, what we want it to be. Like if people can get to the place where we want to go.

So you mentioned that you have these people who just want a very specific thing and you have the open -ended person where you sort of, where part of the request is to do, to come up with a strategy, to find where the root cause of whatever problem they have or challenge they're facing, where that actually lies. In the case of someone coming on and wanting something very specific,

Do you think, like, do you have an idea if this sort of customer, if they have someone internally who is the UX designer, who is someone who takes care of this entire concept? Because that is something that is, that I'm still trying to figure out because from our perspective.

It's, we also have these cases that are a lot like you describe it. Like somebody comes and says, look, I want this, which is sort of the solution, right? Like they, this is whatever you will make that will make as a product, is for them, at least in this phase of briefing, it's, it's sort of, they think about it as the solution to whatever problem they're having. Right.

And, and it might not be, as you also said, right? Like it made, might even make stuff worse. Like we had this customer, they said, we want a new website. And then they had a new website and they restructured all of their content in a way that they wanted to. And then they got a huge punishment from Google because they shoved around their content too hard and had like a 40 % drop in website visitors and rankings. And it was horrible. It was absolutely horrible because.

Florian (23:53)
Yes.

Nils (23:58)
They kind of just did that on their own. so if I talk to business owners about user experience and how to get to a good one, whatever you're doing, then I think my question is

After we leave, will you have someone who continues on this? Or do you want us on Retainer to do this for the longer run? This sort of stuff. Do you have any idea about how this is with your customers?

Florian (24:22)
Yeah, I mean, it greatly depends on the type of project, but with everything, of course. But I think that for most clients, the experience, once we say we're done with it, that never means that the client is not going to change something in the upcoming months and years and the time that follows. So they most likely at some point will have new products. They most likely will add more content.

Nils (24:41)
Mm -hmm.

Florian (24:46)
So either we can find a safe place for the content where, let's say, the most simple example would be some sort of blog or news section where you update new things. I think this is something that can be much more easily maintained than crafting new landing pages that are a more integral part of the whole user experience on the website. Again, just the website example, because it's more convenient to have

Nils (24:59)
Yes.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah, yeah, I think everybody can relate to that.

Florian (25:15)
Yeah. And so I think for the starting point before that, I think that research and analyzing the status quo is very important because there you get the findings that you need to actually have a rock -solid foundation on the next steps. But then again, I think after the fact, after you're done with this sprint, let's say, if you have the website, the new website or the

the new branding and everything, if you have that life, if it's carried out through all touch points, it doesn't end there. And it really doesn't for us as well, because even if we, let's say we do a rebranding project where the website is just one part of, typically have style guides, we provide templates, we have all of these things that are part of the whole new brand experience, but this is never something that is then just going to stay like this forever.

Nils (25:46)
Exactly.

Mm.

Mmm.

Florian (26:06)
So there will be new ideas that will come, new products, depending on what type of realm they're actually in. to me, of course, I think it would be important to always have a client that evaluates if this needs a change in the things that are already said, if it's just another duplicate of the same page where we just change around some text and something like that.

Nils (26:29)
Mmm.

Florian (26:30)
if it actually requires something else to make sure that it has the same quality and the same experience in general, and as well if you talk UX research and experience, then you also need to figure out with all of the things that we're changing in the future, do we still adhere to all of the goals and findings that we had initially in the learnings? And does it still work the same way? That would

Nils (26:38)
Yes.

Florian (26:56)
Number two and number three to me would also be do surrounding factors change that would have you need to reiterate on some of these things? if, depending on what type of client and client base it is, if the market changes in a relevant way or if you have any other factors that have influence on it, then it could also mean that you definitely need to change the way that users experience a digital product, let's say.

should not ideally be something that you just do like that without properly reiterating if you actually need to make some major changes to make sure that the goal or target that you initially said is still reached within this whole experience and across all touchpoints.

Nils (27:37)
Agreed, like 100%. That is, I think that is one of the toughest breaks. I often have to have to talk our customers through because especially, I don't know if especially with startups, but I think, you know, when you start a business and you're this business owner now and you have a million things on your agenda.

You have to take decisions on a daily basis and all of this, of course, your entire job is to take the decisions necessary in a way that you end up in whatever goal you set out to reach. we often had this like, so we transitioned in the last years, I would say, from primarily making websites. so where we came from is we were designers.

We're front end developers. We can make you a website. Like you can tell us what should go on it. Like, and this is just one part already. Like we asked the customer, what do you want on your website? You know, and I think by now I would say that's the wrong question. Like they should tell me what is the goal that you're trying to achieve. Not with the website even,

Florian (28:42)
Okay.

Nils (28:50)
Where are you trying to go with your company? Like what's the idea for you next year? If we talk at the same time next year, and we talk again in three years, what are you trying to achieve? Are you trying to go into a new market? Are you going to try and to launch a new product? Are you just going to triple your active user base with the product that you have? Like what's the plan, right? Like is it to solidify what you have?

Are you going to do a pivot? Are you going to expand your portfolio? Like all of that sort of stuff. And because like asking, what do you want on your website? That is actually, I think that is sort of, and this is probably not correct, but this is like, so we're also still developing this whole thing. I think this is a question for you ex designer, at least at the very top level.

So as a business owner, you kind of, I'm not even sure if you should be the one deciding that you need a website. You know, because the website is just one of the channels that you're probably going to have in the end in your mix of how you're going to talk to your customers. If you think about this whole, about this whole funnel that marketing people love to talk

Right at the very top, there's everyone, so to say. And at the very bottom, there's only the people that are really like a qualified lead that you would like to convert into a customer. And in this entire process, the website is one thing. And in our transformation from making a website pretty, so to say, like make a pretty working website was our...

product and us asking the business owners, what do want on your website? And then maybe we had a comment of like, this is a lot of text, maybe make it half as long, you know, this doesn't look very good. And all of these assessments are really not, I think what counts in the future. And it shouldn't even be the consideration of a business owner or like maybe if they have a department who actually does partly what we do as an agency job, then maybe.

Florian (30:34)
Yeah.

Nils (30:54)
But so,

The way to approach this and to really take away the challenge that our customers face. This is something that I think I'm still trying to explore in this podcast because I think it's really like a fundamental paradigm shift of how people think about this whole thing. Like you as a business owner today, I kind of taught you need a website.

You also need an Insta channel and you should probably be very active on LinkedIn. And by the way, for the website, you need SEO. All right. So you go out and find suppliers for these individual things. And it's like building a house and you're talking to the carpenter and the roofer and the like all they all ask you different questions and you're the one who is supposed to decide now, but you kind of want a house. Right.

Florian (31:41)
Yeah, I think it's something that businesses will have to adapt to, that they at some point already are. But I think it's a tad bit about handing over responsibility. also, I can imagine and I also understand that it might be difficult for some businesses and for some companies to hand out these

Nils (31:55)
Mm -hmm.

Florian (32:05)
these answers to these questions or even what questions they should ask themselves to someone else and to agree to receive consultation on these things. Because as you mentioned, it should be a paradigm shift because it seems to be so set in stone currently what you are supposed to have without, you mentioned, which I think is a great point, asking the question, but do you actually

Nils (32:10)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Florian (32:31)
Is that actually what fits your business, your business model? I think with the question having a website at all would be something that many businesses would tell you. mean, yeah, because if somebody is searching for something on Google, we want them to find us. We want to be there. But then again, you would have to find out to what extent and where does it go from there and how is it part of your funnel and everything, all the things that you just mentioned. And I

Nils (32:31)
Yes.

Florian (32:58)
They're all valid questions in there, but most business owners will probably be reluctant to hand out these questions or to give away part of the responsibility on how they should be crafting their digital experience and how they should be representing their brand. So I think they will have a hard time doing that, but I think it's a good starting point to establish how much better a user experience and how

Nils (33:14)
Mm -hmm.

Florian (33:24)
less work might be involved in the long run in crafting their whole brand experience and their funnel and their marketing activities and all of their touch points if they ask themselves the right questions. But now I think it will still take a little bit of time to make them to raise awareness for you might not have to do everything. It's also like for digital agencies. We had to find out or to figure

Nils (33:31)
Mm -hmm.

Yes.

Florian (33:47)
Well, do we need to have an Instagram, LinkedIn, Behance, Dribbble, and probably a bunch of other things that nobody really cares about? And then you would have to ask yourself the question, why do you want to be on that platform? Who do you want to target? What do you want to get from it? And then you quickly find out that we could cut 80 % of these platforms and focus on something else.

I think those are very valid questions that you would have to ask yourself, not just the agencies, but especially, you know, bigger companies that are spending a huge amount of money on all of these things while they could, you know, have someone explore what it actually is and to find out what their user experience is. And if the user experience does only happen on a landing page or if it's where it starts, where does it end? And all of these things that we discussed initially as

Nils (34:10)
Mm -hmm.

I think that's a great way to maybe end this episode with a couple of pointers for people who have to deal with this. So if you're a business owner and you're listening to this, two agency people talking about their daily business, I guess...

The way that you framed it in the end is really the best way to put

The way that people are going to experience your company and the way that the internet is changing currently, we have so many things going on, especially this year, I would say, like partly fueled by generative AI stuff, partly fueled by how I think economy changes in general. So in the upcoming years,

As Flo said, to ask yourself the right questions, that is the absolute paramount thing to say. I would agree. is, like we are set in, I think in the last 20 years where people had to be on the internet more or less, you know, which is if you think about it, not even that long, we came into this rut

just thinking we need these things. if you could point your customers to one thing to pay attention to in the future, what is maybe, maybe we can come up with like three good questions to ask yourself. And so I think one is already very good, like,

Which are the channels that I actually have to be present on? Do I have to be everywhere? I think it's a good question. It's, right?

Florian (36:13)
Yeah, that's nice though.

Nils (36:14)
What's another one? What's good way to think about this?

Florian (36:18)
I mean, it might be too specific, but one thing that we are encountering so much is how to deal with shorter attention spans. How can you craft an experience that aligns with the shift that is happening with the user base, depending on what your user base is, of course. But I think that we're seeing a lot of shorter attention spans, and you have

Nils (36:27)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Mm

Florian (36:43)
to convey information in a size, in a chunk size, I would say, that conveys everything in the shortest amount of time. And that requires you to have a very different approach to your experience, because you cannot introduce them to a wall of text, because they will read three sentences, and then they will be bored and move on. So you will have to find a way to present it differently.

Nils (36:58)
Yes!

Florian (37:06)
dealing with how can you deal with shorter attention spans in communication would be something that I think would be very important in the age of TikTok and everything.

Nils (37:14)
Perfect. Cool. And I think these build upon very well. So which channels, how do you deal with shorter attention spans? Which is, I think, the general realm of it's not necessarily shorter attention spans because people are getting dumber or whatever. I think that's not even the case. I think it's just, I read this comment the

the other day where somebody said the internet used to be text based. Now it's shifting over to be video based. And I think there's still a lot of nuance between that, of course, but I think it goes to your point. And maybe that's like for me to chuck in one more there is I believe that especially since the beginning

of 23, when we saw OpenAI and GenAI explode and fill the internet with stuff. Like it has, it had been gigantic before, but I think the amount of new websites and new content, however genuine it is, just exploded over the course of the last 18 months, which is, I mean, it even went that far that Google is struggling to keep.

their promise of delivering the best UX to people searching the web because you end up with only SEO optimized content for the first 10 results. And that is of course what nobody wants. Like if I'm Googling how to make a lemon cake, then I don't want to scroll for through three kilometers of SEO content before somebody gives me a recipe that's like this long. And so the way that you surface your own business on the internet.

Florian (38:30)
No.

Nils (38:54)
will be different in the next couple of years. And so in this gigantic ocean of people with short attention spans on different channels, I would add on that if you have a customer, do everything to keep them. I think that of course was something to consider in the past, but I think it's even more important in the coming years.

Florian (38:57)
Definitely.

episode.

Nils (39:17)
just because the mass is so big. And if somebody entrusted you to provide whatever they're looking for, B2C, B2B, doesn't matter. Like, keep your customers. Do everything to keep them happy.

Florian (39:29)
How do do it? How do you do it? That's a question as well.

Nils (39:32)
That's the question. That is the question. And I would say like a big part of that is if you know which parts of your business contribute to the experience that your customer will have. And as Flo suggested, you stay on top of it. Like this is not a one -time activity. This is like if you ever hired a SEO person, the first thing they say is, you

This is not a sprint. This is a marathon. This is like an ongoing thing we'll have to do for the next two years every week. And I think keeping an eye on all of your funnels, on all of the way that your customers move through your system and the way that they will experience all of this. I think that is very important because

There's one hiccup, there's like one broken sign up that people don't understand what they're signing up for. And your entire thing is, it's at least just so much harder. It could be so easy, right? Amazing, amazing. Thank you Flo for coming on today and for sharing all of this. I hope it was valuable.

Florian (40:28)
Yeah, point.

Thanks for having me.

Nils (40:37)
to our listeners. It was definitely very valuable to me. I always enjoy our exchanges anyway. yeah, let's see if we can maybe repeat this in the future. Let's see if we meet in a year from now, what changed.

Florian (40:44)
with you.

That would be interesting. I'll totally be up for that. Thanks for having

Nils (40:55)
Nice. Cool. All right. See you everyone on the next episode. Bye.

Florian (40:59)
Bye bye.